• Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.works
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    6 hours ago

    : dips toe in water:

    Holy shit! This bitch be wet! Just as our forefathers be-claimed… .’

    -‘WTF! There’s more water now! What ever will we do with all this water!?’

  • kalman@dboft.com
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    13 hours ago

    They have unlimited resources and can keep this floating longer than any of us can imagine.

    • historicaldocuments@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      Like the article says, their internal risk management models are telling them to get the risk off their books.

      Taking on the debt in the first place is like agreeing to store a gallon of milk in a fridge for an undetermined amount of time. The milk is going to go bad, and when it does the jug (or bag) might explode forcing a cleanout of the fridge, throwing out other things in the fridge, and maybe replacing the fridge altogether if the milk leaked down into a lot of crevices. Everyone knows the milk will go bad, but the big banks will know how old the fridge is, what coolant it uses, how old the compressor is, how many times a day the fridge has been opened, the average time it stays open, the dairy the cow who produced the milk, and the name of the cow if they can get it. The milk is going bad quicker than expected, and they’re finding out they don’t want to be the ones to guess when the jug will explode, and they’re also finding out that nobody else wants to buy the jug.

      Oracle pulling a “god did it” was probably a part of this, but nobody involved is going to give a real answer.

      • Sir_Premiumhengst@lemmy.world
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        4 hours ago

        Uh brother! (or sister on non binary sibling).

        You just sell the entire fridge as a sub prime fridge and watch the number go up.

    • Jiral@lemmy.world
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      5 hours ago

      No they can’t do it forever. Exponentially growing demands outrun everything eventually. The onl, way out of this are either controlled deflation of the bubble or a hard crash. The former is possible but unlikely.

        • Jiral@lemmy.world
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          3 hours ago

          Oh well, so I found someone talking away the big warning sign of circular financing (in the range of billions to trillions of USD), something that quite frankly should be illegal.

    • Jaysyn@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      Softbank doesn’t.

      With the VC money faucet being cut off, there is no way OpenAI or Anthropic will be able to cover their debt repayments that start in 2027. The media is failing at basic math at this point.

      • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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        2 hours ago

        They’ve been failing at literally every step in AI coverage, especially at just parroting whatever the fuck anthropic and openai claim to be their newest breakthrough without questioning anything. Failing basic math is just icing on the cake.

    • Smoogs@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      What’s fun is now you can stick it to a bank easily by taking out all your money and investing it yourself. Make money off your own money. Cuz they sure do when they have it. (Hence the wait time when withdrawing large amounts)

      Lots of trade apps out there now. You only need banks for holding small transaction amounts for paying bill. Soon they won’t even be required for that.

    • monkeyslikebananas2@lemmy.world
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      5 hours ago

      “Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.” - John Maynard Keynes

      But fact of the matter is that the people who run the market are the ones that decide who wins and loses. And they never lose.

    • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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      4 hours ago

      I suspect this might be worse due to the amount of money being thrown around. As much as I want the companies responsible for the stupid bubble to go bankrupt, there’s a lot of money from pension and investment funds, so that’s going to hurt a lot of people who had nothing to do with that.

      https://www.wheresyoured.at/credit-crunch/

    • Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.works
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      6 hours ago

      Speaking as an ancient person that has survived 40+ years of a capitalist hellscape, Yes. The bubble always bursts.

      It is a thing that bubbles do.

      • BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works
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        4 hours ago

        I remember the wall coming down and Denmark winning the UEFA cup in '92…

        I think the AI bubble is gonna be so much worse than dotcom or housing in 2008. To me this AI bullshit is the dotcom on steroids.

        • Jaysyn@lemmy.world
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          4 hours ago

          And we won’t even get infrastructure out of this. Just a bunch of half finished data centers & $500B in currently warehoused specialized GPUs that can’t easily be repurposed.

        • InputZero@lemmy.world
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          4 hours ago

          One of the many lessons to take from Enron’s downfall. Downfalls like this always seem impossible until the downfall happens. Then it becomes obvious why the downfall was inevitable.

          • ripcord@lemmy.world
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            19 hours ago

            I’ve been hearing that since LLMs started gaining popularity. Doesn’t seem any closer today than, say, 2 years ago. But someone always makes this comment.

            I’ve also been expecting a general stock market crash for a decade+. Somehow still hasn’t happened.

            • Auli@lemmy.ca
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              4 hours ago

              Because they don’t need us. As long as they trade amongst themselves the price goes up. We can all die for all they care.

            • percent@infosec.pub
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              15 hours ago

              Doesn’t seem any closer today than, say, 2 years ago.

              Have you seen what small, open-weight models from Chinese labs are capable of doing on consumer-grade hardware? They’re much more advanced than any flagship LLM running on VERY expensive hardware, 2 years ago.

              I have no idea how close we might (or might not) be to the bubble bursting, but surely it’s closer than 2 years ago.

              • jumping redditor [they/them]@sh.itjust.works
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                15 hours ago

                It’s fairly clear that the big ai companies are trying to get some form of general artificial intelligence because that’s basically a pot of infinite money, if they find it the rest of the economy is fucked and they skyrocket in value if they don’t find it the rest of the economy is fucked from debit and they go belly up.

                • Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.works
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                  6 hours ago

                  It sounds like a couple of billionaires are staking their fortunes on a dice roll because the world bores them and fuck everyone else. Right?

                  Edit: I meant a couple, two three billionaires.

  • likebudda@reddthat.com
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    1 day ago

    My youtube algorthim is filled with AI-skeptics (Eli the Computer guy, Ed Zitron, Prof G Markets) so this has been the slowest car crash I’ve ever gotten to watch happen. If Donald had actually focused on inflation all of these debt-sensitive AI plays could’ve continued to whistle through the graveyard. The skeptics have called out coreweave as being potentially the first domino to topple and their 6 year debt is trading at 15% right now. Thanks to plummeting token costs, they need to double their token sales every 90 days.

    • Godric@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      My youtube algorithm

      Why are you deliberately living in a bubble that shows you what you want to hear? Like I have a cousin convinced for years that either the US or China is >6 months from total economic collapse, because that’s their algo is showing them reinforcing narratives they want to hear.

      • likebudda@reddthat.com
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        1 hour ago

        Using youtube logged out gives you the general algorithm filled with crap I would never consider watching, at least mine’s curated. It gave me a little too much hope in Kamala but it’s not like I fought any less hard for her. I aggressively cull my feed and it’s pretty much just the creators I subscribe to. If I want “discovery” I filter reddit by youtu.be or youtube.com.

        • Godric@lemmy.world
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          1 hour ago

          I like browsing anonymously, navigating directly to channels I enjoy because I get the general crap that can be easilly ignored at a glance, rather than potentially fringe products of an echo chamber slowly and sneakily creeping into my feed without my realization. I’m paranoid of the slow boil, you know? Different strokes.

    • redballooon@lemmy.world
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      23 hours ago

      Stop using YouTube. The algorithm is not good for your mental health, nor to learn anything of substance.

      • partofthevoice@lemmy.zip
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        22 hours ago

        The algorithm is dog ass. YouTube is still full of plenty smart people with something to say, though. It’s a video sharing platform; that doesn’t inherently mean every content creator who uses it is also dog ass.

      • ripcord@lemmy.world
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        20 hours ago

        I don’t use the algorithm

        I would love it if people just did the bare basics and posted to multiple sites but they refuse to.

        I mean, maybe they do with shorts + Tiktok or some of that shit

        • Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.works
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          6 hours ago

          I wish the same things, but, post to YT -500k views-paycheck. Post to Obscure Streaming Service- Only fans see it/care.

          I love Nebula, but I always make sure my favorite creators get clicks on both platforms, because I’m unsure of the pay model.

          Please correct my ignorance.

      • thermal_shock@lemmy.world
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        20 hours ago

        I watch more perfect union and the good liars. They’re not good at pointing out major issues? They bring receipts.

        • redballooon@lemmy.world
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          11 hours ago

          I have never heard of these channels. But if they are on YouTube to generate money, then they must grow views, and thus they’re subject to the algorithm. And thus you are getting your information filtered through the algorithms preferences.

          It’s not censorship, but it’s a constant force that pushes content creators into one direction, and if you’re somewhat informed I don’t need to line out what direction that is. It’s just another algorithm based anti social media.

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              1 hour ago

              Quite a low standard you have there, and it shows that you are not prepared to defend your mind against the algorithm.

              The alt right influencer network has a huge gray zone, and the algorithm presents you those influencers that match your current level of world view. And there they sow doubt, little “insights” at a time, constantly dragging your perception into one direction.

              Trumps time is mostly over, the main alt right influencers already prepare for the time after.

              • thermal_shock@lemmy.world
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                44 minutes ago

                You couldn’t read between the lines that I don’t give a shit? I watch what I like and block what I don’t. Chill Winston. If it recommends me bullshit I block it, especially Trump bullshit.

        • KeithD@lemmy.nz
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          19 hours ago

          Ignore pretty much anything farming related from More Perfect Union - they tend to provide farm lobby propaganda without actually fact checking it. I’ve become much more sceptical of their other coverage based on how bad that segment of it seems to be.

        • redballooon@lemmy.world
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          20 hours ago

          Each one of the content creators ais subject to the same forces that the algorithm creates. No matter where you start, the content plus the algorithm slowly pushes you as well as the content creators into one direction. It may be a weak force, but it’s always there. content creators who want to grow their views do not have the liberty to evade it.

          The direction is always towards divisive positions and decreasingly evidence based arguments, generally anti institutional, anti science, anti journalistic media.

          YouTube as a feed is poison for a healthy mindset.

  • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    Banks are in the business of underwriting debt and reselling it to private investors.

    We’ve been reading this “End is Near” shit since COVID. Put something more on the table.

    • ElChinchilla@lemmy.world
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      7 hours ago

      Bad tech rapidly became a central pillar to that buying/selling and everyone is realizing it may be worthless.

    • Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world
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      6 hours ago

      I’ve been reading, “the end is near,” since HIV/Aids, y2k, 9/11, the SARS outbreak, the anthrax scare, the swine flu/h1n1 and the several ebola outbreaks. Oh yeah all those wmd scares and the potential for a world War after 9/11.

      The end is always fuckin’ near. If it’s all gonna end fuckin’ do it already!!! That’s what I think and it’s the waiting and the probabilities of the what-ifs that I can’t fucking take.

      Seriously, if they wanted to end it all they could, they just make threats to control everything with fear because all governments are terrorist fucking babys that ironically, need to maintain a society.

        • Don_alForno@feddit.org
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          9 hours ago

          Their yields going higher and higher is not “outperforming”, it’s the opposite. Higher yield = higher risk.

        • AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          Do you think they can maintain that for another 5 years? Another 20? Is the product AI companies providing worth the valuations?

          Are 5 AI companies providing more value than every other tech company in the last 50 years? Thats what the valuations are trying to say. Im still waiting on ChatGPT to cure cancer.

          • BreakingBigfoot@lemmus.org
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            21 hours ago

            I don’t see it happening; Copilot was a failed proof of concept that crippled the Windows ecosystem and permanently tarnished Microslop’s reputation as the premier operating-system developer; the Linux community doesn’t openly embrace AI much at all, and gamers couldn’t care less about it… All the LLM services have been running at a consistent loss/debt, and CoreWeave is propped up by the only 2 companies that couldn’t even successfully launch a finished product. They need to cut their losses and pack it in; call it a day!

            • Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world
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              5 hours ago

              TBF windows has been going steadily downhill since XP, but yeah, the copilot shit certainly made a whole lot of people start looking for the exit. I think a bunch of people had been getting increasingly sick of the windows experience for years but kept using it because it was just there, and they couldn’t be bothered to change. Actually, I was one of them. Copilot was just the final straw.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            23 hours ago

            Do you think they can maintain that for another 5 years? Another 20?

            I think expecting NVIDIA to fail inside the next five years is a wild reach. You might expect Oracle to take haircut in the next five years, based on their atrocious debt load. But even then, the idea that they’ll miss a credit payment?

            Twenty years out, these firms are an even safer bet. Long term demand for compute and hosting services is only going up. And they’re so heavily consolidated. Too Big To Fail in every sense of the word. Are you going to bet against JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs on the eve of the financial crisis, even? Twenty years later, how are they doing?

            Are 5 AI companies providing more value than every other tech company in the last 50 years?

            It’s not a question of value, it’s a question of earnings growth. Will these top 5 AI companies be seeing stratospheric earnings growth in the next ten years? All signs point to “Yes”. The race to cement these data center footprints is a scramble for limited resources. The Capex budgets won’t be inflated to this degree forever.

            Dismissing them for their rapid expansion would be like betting against New York and Chicago real estate markets because you didn’t trust skyscrapers to be profitable in another 20 years. Or betting against U.S. Steel and Standard Oil at the apex of WW2, because the resource demand from the conflict can’t go on forever.

            • AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world
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              21 hours ago

              I’m not saying they will fail I’m saying they will not maintain their rate of growth. Very, very different things but i guess you can pretend i said something else and argue against that or whatever idk dude lol

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                21 hours ago

                I’m not saying they will fail I’m saying they will not maintain their rate of growth.

                They’ll hit a saturation point eventually, sure. But demand for capacity continues to outstrip supply.

                • gian @lemmy.grys.it
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                  8 hours ago

                  If you will hit a saturation point, at some point the demand will stop outstripping the supply. Once you cannot exapand, the supply will catch up simply because the demand decreases, not considering that the supply could simply increase.

            • Jiral@lemmy.world
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              5 hours ago

              Yes, if you invested in the right company you made a lot of money, if you invested in the wrong company, you lose all your money. The onvestment was high risk back then it is high risk now.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                5 hours ago

                Yes, if you invested in the right company you made a lot of money, if you invested in the wrong company, you lose all your money.

                That’s how investing works.

                The onvestment was high risk back then

                I would be curious to see how you try and calculate EV on a stock.

                • Jiral@lemmy.world
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                  3 hours ago

                  The risk back then was high. It is high now as well, if you invest in a sector that is deeply unprofitable and profitability predictions are based on a lot of speculation, ridden with circular financing, lots of obvious oversupply signs and contrary to most previous bubbles, a product (GPUs) that is depreciating so fast that no lasting value will be created by the bubble.

            • rumba@lemmy.zip
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              21 hours ago

              I’d argue that Microsoft really didn’t do anything .com-ish. Amazon would have been a better choice for your argument.

              And noone’s arguing that no companies flourished during those years. Just that a fuckton of them drug the market back to hell with their overpriced evaluations. (people laying fiber and buying 1.2M sock puppet ads in the super bowl)

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                21 hours ago

                I’d argue that Microsoft really didn’t do anything .com-ish.

                They’ve been the pack leader in the tech sector for decades.

                And noone’s arguing that no companies flourished during those years.

                The MAG7 have been outperforming the rest of the market since COVID, often by 5+%

                This is very different than betting on some small cap IPOs

                • rumba@lemmy.zip
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                  21 hours ago

                  They’ve been the pack leader in the tech sector for decades.

                  So what did they do that was crazy long bad bet .com? Them existing in the .com days leaves nothing to the discussion at hand.

                  Amazon was at least standing up storefronts and cloud at that point.

                  The MAG7 have been outperforming the rest of the market since COVID, often by 5+%

                  What does this have to do with Tech bubble vs AI bubble? Are you interested in being on topic or just arguing?

  • joey_builds@eviltoast.org
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    1 day ago

    The part nobody prices in is the stranded-asset scenario. These underwritings assume a demand curve that keeps rising for a decade. If inference efficiency improves the way training efficiency did — and there’s real pressure in that direction now — a lot of this capacity gets repriced hard.

    The bank behavior is the tell: debt that gets packaged and sold on right after underwriting is the classic ‘we have concerns but we’re not holding the bag’ move.

    • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
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      24 hours ago

      I would say there are definite advances for inference. Custom backends built by AI for specific models, such as Strata, makes efficient leveraging of hardware much easier. Engrams, such as those in Qwen Next-Flash, allows for using more parameters via SSD, rather than memory alone.

      These and other things over the past few years have allowed me to use bigger models, faster. Given another year of such progress, I think the value of subscribing to big American companies would start drying up.

      • Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world
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        5 hours ago

        Sorry, ignorant question from someone who didn’t understand much of your comment - do you mean that AI models are writing code that improves them? Cos that would be interesting.

        • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
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          4 hours ago

          Not improvements to the AI themselves, but rather the software that runs them. Backends like Unsloth are typically generalists - they are compatible with all sorts of hardware, but in exchange, they don’t incorporate the latest improvements or ideas. Projects run by pure human implementation tend to require a lot of oversight to ensure that additions don’t break functionality.

          AI is really good at collecting and aggregating information. This makes them ideal for creating tailor-made products that have a narrow focus, since they raid many Githubs and papers, then attempt to make them into a product. Strata is one such backend, which is specially designed for Qwen Next-Flash.

          Strata runs much faster than Unsloth and other generalist backends, but lacks flexibility in what it is suited for.


          At least, that is my admittedly basic understanding of the situation…

    • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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      19 hours ago

      Apparently they’ve spent 10 trillion in commitments that soan to 2032… And have to get AI earning to 3 trillion a year to avoid a crash.

      …and there’s 8 billion people on earth. So I assume they’re hoping for some lucrative corporate/government contracts and bailouts.

  • bthest@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    So how would a (by now inevitable) government bailout not trigger an untenable treasury yield?

  • UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
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    Is the bailout going to be because of national security or is it going to be a to big to fail situation.

    • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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      1 day ago

      The thing is the boat was very clearly going down when they got on.

      Everyone knew it was a pyramid scheme from the start they just thought there were at the top of the pyramid and now they’re worried because it looks like they’re a little further down than that so they’re trying to minimize their losses.

  • Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.ca
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    2 days ago

    It’s about time for the ultra-wealthy to create another 2007 so they can wrench the last bits of wealth off anyone who isn’t already a $100Ms-billionaire.

      • lorty@lemmy.ml
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        23 hours ago

        2008 USA had the financial means to avoid the worst. This isn’t the case anymore.

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        2 days ago

        Don’t worry, the people responsible in 2008 were held accountable. They also didn’t profit massively off the economic collapse. Frodo also got the ring to Mordor. He had some help, but the ring was ultimately destroyed.

        • DickFiasco@sh.itjust.works
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          2 days ago

          My favorite quote from The Big Short:

          In the years that followed, hundreds of bankers and rating agency executives went to jail. The SEC was completely overhauled, and Congress had no choice but to break up the big banks and regulate the mortgage and derivatives industries.

          Just kidding. Banks took the money the American people gave them, and they used it to pay themselves huge bonuses, and lobby the Congress to kill big reform. And then they blamed immigrants and poor people, and this time even teachers.

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            1 day ago

            They blamed all the foreclosees loudly and publicly despite it being their own fault, while they got bailed out on our tax dollars. Insult to injury the rich blaming the foreclosees hardly even pay any taxes.

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              I thought his biggest failure was his raining hellfire on whistleblowers, kids protesting, and immigrants, but I’m willing to debate this. The real sting is that we had such high hopes and we got …that, instead, and then Biden after. I was so happy when Obama was elected the first time.

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                1 day ago

                I never had high hopes, sadly I called it.

                For the most part, as usual the democrats did even worse than I thought they would, but I also called that, but they did worse than even I knew they would do worse.

              • jason@discuss.online
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                2009 should have been the end of trying to “reach across the aisle.” 2010 should have been the end of the filibuster.

          • Rhaedas@fedia.io
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            Dr. Burry! If the investors withdraw, what’s gonna happen here? Are we done?

            Honestly, I don’t know! The… the… The bonds aren’t going down! They won’t move! It’s possible that we are in a completely fraudulent system.

            Or… you’re, you’re wrong.

            Sure! It’s possible, I just don’t know how!

        • Rhaedas@fedia.io
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          One part of that is just a story. As for the other part: I’m glad Frodo made it with help from his friends.

    • bedwyr@piefed.ca
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      If by fun, you mean existentially bad and the death of the republic in all but name to be replaced ultimately with military rule that will become increasingly despotic while the country burns, then yes, I would agree.

  • [object Object]@lemmy.ca
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    2 days ago

    Probably related to the now three Oracle data center that can’t get electricity.

    Wisconsin passed a law that fast tracking large projects requires a high credit rating or collateral, to pay secure costs for building the power plants needed for the data center. In July Oracle’s debt rating was downgraded to near junk levels.

    That means Oracle can no longer get Wisconsin to supply power to the data center so it’s a $15 billion dollar paper weight. Thats putting even further downward pressure on their credit rating and ability to secure loans to meet their $500B in obligations.

    Now Oracle’s New Mexico data center is stuck due to contract issues with water and gas turbines, so they can’t move foreward. Oracle has a 9% interest rate on the loans to build that, then they raise 2% after construction, because their credit rating is dogshit. So now Oracle is claiming force majeur to get out of their increased debt obligations, which you can imagine, is killing interest in lending to them.

    In Texas they just blocked new grid hookups over political backlash to skyrocketing electricity prices. That killed another Oracle expansion they just canceled, and another one is trucking in gas for gas turbines as an alternative to the electrical grid, which you might imagine is expensive.

    Which brings us to now. The banks are looking at local opposition blocking these projects (local action is working), states are blocking them to avoid getting voted out, hardware costs are shooting up, and the assets backing these loans are too small for so much investment.

    So the level of risk no longer works.

    —

    My personal theory is that Oracle is a sacrificial lamb. It’s a dead end tech company that lives on licensing fees, and they’ve fucked themselves on these expansions. They’re failing at being a hyper-scaler as margins decrease.

    I bet we see someone take Oracle private when their stock collapses, freeing the board of fiduciary duty to the stakeholders with a payout. This move is critical because it blocks other hyperscalers from putting in an offer to acquire their assets to shore up debt.

    OpenAI will acquire the now private Oracle through a special funding round and buy up their hardware for pennies on the dollar. This will absolve them of the debt obligations Oracle has to OpenAI that have killed their credit ($500b), and stabilizes the Oracle balance sheet.

    OpenAI will write this down and offer Oracle’s creditors equity stakes in lieu of cash, and will have acquired all their next gen hardware far cheaper than their competitors.

    This might even fuck over Nvidia, the incestuous funders of the AI circlejerk. If Oracle gets to write off their GPU debts then Nvidia loses a fuck ton of sales, tanking their stock price — they take that OpenAI equity offer and look like they’re playing the game. OpenAI wants to build their own chips anyways, just look at jalapeño.

    • bitjunkie@lemmy.world
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      Oracle can no longer get Wisconsin to supply power to the data center so it’s a $15 billion dollar paper weight.

      Fucking lol

      • [object Object]@lemmy.ca
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        It’s even better because they signed contracts that guarantee that capacity to OpenAI, guarantee payments to their creditors, and Oracle is on the hook for it all with no outs.

        Which is why I think it’s all a play, oracle famously is very lawyer heavy, they wouldn’t sign such stupid deals for no reason.

        • chaogomu@lemmy.world
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          they wouldn’t sign such stupid deals for no reason.

          Greed. The reason was greed. They bought into the hype and thought they could print money.

          And all the tech companies are doing it, Oracle was just the sick man of the bunch, and will be the first to fall, dragging the rest down with them.

          All because they’re offloading trillions in debt to special purpose vehicles, the same thing that tanked Enron, the difference is that Enron, with $400 million in debt, was lying about it, and the current tech companies doing the exact same shit, are disclosing the debt legally, but still hiding it in the fine print of their disclosures.

          The debt will still crash the economy, but at least it’s out in the open?

          • kreskin@lemmy.world
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            Also Larry is not nearly as sharp or thorough as he used to be, and he’s turned into a bit of a crumugeonly headstrong dick in his old age. No 82 year old is as sharp as they ised to be, despite how people like to lie about it. No 70 year old feels 40 anymore either. He has made numerous mistakes inside Oracle, and now he has run the whole company straight off a cliff, as aging boomers will tend to do.

            • adarza@lemmy.ca
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              isn’t he also personally on-the-hook for debt used in recent ‘media ventures’, too?

            • chaogomu@lemmy.world
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              And tanking the entire economy is the process.

              Also, Larry Ellison (who can fuck right off) has leaned on his Oracle stock to fiance the buyout of all the media companies he’s gobbling up to build yet another right wing propaganda ecosystem.

        • eestileib@sh.itjust.works
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          20 hours ago

          Wisconsin has a preternatural ability not to learn things tho. They’re up there with Kansas and Florida.

        • bedwyr@piefed.ca
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          The Foxconn deal was always a scam, I doubt they learned anything from it, other than to deny before the midterms and then cave to them after, which is I presume the plan.

          Wisconsin is so heavily gerrymandered they have one of the worst state governments in the country, and they used to have one of the best.

          Edit: Although maybe their supreme court ungerrymandered the state part, or was it the fed part? Either way, they are all crooks and will side with big money after the election you better believe they will try.

    • tburkhol@slrpnk.net
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      I don’t think it says anything about specific data center risks: capitalizing loans is standard operating procedure for these banks. It gets the loans off their account books, so they don’t have to hold capital to balance the risk, but they still get to collect management fees on the loans, regardless of whether they default. The big stories back in the 00s were residential real estate loans, but they do the same thing for commercial and industrial property.

      • naught101@lemmy.world
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        Isn’t fact they are having a hard time offloading that debt an indication that other investors are shying away from it because they see the data centre risk?

      • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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        Yes. The banks are there to just be an intermediary for this crap. The part where they unload at a loss was not part of their plan.

        • [object Object]@lemmy.ca
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          I offer you an IOU. I’m on a good streak, and the IOU is that I’ll pay you back over time with interest.

          You accept. You then find 9 other people offering IOUs of varying reliability.

          You package up all the IOUs into an asset group. In theory we all pay you back regularly, but some of us will not. With 10 IOUs it’s unlikely we’ll all default, so the asset is safer and your risk models can assess this.

          You still have the same amount of debt and risk on your hands.

          You turn sell the rights to the payouts from the group, in exchange for cash now, because paying $X for payback of Y% interest over Z years with Q risk is an easy to reason about deal.

          But your potential buyers squabble over Q, some don’t want to lose anything, some want to be risky.

          So you split that risk level out into groups and say “if the overall goes down, this group pays first, then this group, then this group”, and you’ve created a securitized asset.

          You’ve now sold off these assets to various groups, with defined risk levels, and you’ve made back money to offset what you paid out to the initial 10 IOUs.

          Now imagine you took IOUs from crack addicts who are talking a lot about the power transformer behind the mall. They say they need money for tools and this will be the big one. You’re intrigued.

          Odds are good this will pay off you think, those crackheads were excited and confident.

          Later that day you hear sirens. Like, a lot of sirens. It’s coming from the mall area. Huh.

          You still haven’t sold off all the slices of your asset, you were maybe hoping for more upside, and selling can take a while. But those sirens… they’re concerning.

          Maybe it’d be a good idea to swap out your asset for another one, or offer those slices at a discount for some higher than expected risk. So you go out and start making phone calls hoping someone else isn’t worried about it. The only people who are less worried are a biker gang you normally wouldn’t do business with, but you figure for a discount they’re happy to deal with the crackheads.

          (This was more about securities than recapitalizing, but kinda the idea)

          • tburkhol@slrpnk.net
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            My impression is that commercial loan securitization is a little different.

            When you’re talking about residential mortgages, you’re talking about loans of a few hundred thousand, which is kind of too small for capital markets to bother. So the banks bundle them, like you say, and sell them in $1e8-1e10 offerings… Pension fund’s gotta park $100,000,000 somewhere, and that MBS is easier than actually managing 500 separate loans.

            When you’re talking about commercial real estate - and especially things as big as data centers - it’s the opposite problem. They need such big loans that only a big bank or even consortium of big banks can get all the capital together, then the big bank turns the loan into a bond offering, so investors can buy them in slices as small as $1e4… That bond may only have one or two loans in it, so it can’t necessarily get broken into risk tranches like the MBS.

          • Logi@lemmy.world
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            With 10 IOUs it’s unlikely [they’ll] all default, so the asset is safer and your risk models can assess this.

            This is where my spider senses go off. Are we assuming that these IOUs defaulting are independent events? Even though they’re from 10 crack heads talking about stealing the same generator?

            • [object Object]@lemmy.ca
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              Yes, probability gets much messier with correlated events, and most models assume independence. You can vary intensity/hazard in counting processes, but really there’s not much you can do at a certain point.

            • trolololol@lemmy.world
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              Yeh and they all hang out with each other and bribe the same police senators and bulk buy their crack dreams from the same dealer 3 AI companies

        • eodur@piefed.social
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          Any sufficiently advanced financial instrument is indistinguishable from fraud

          • No1@aussie.zone
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            2 days ago
            1. Own the politicians
            2. Get bailouts
            3. Avoid any legal or financial consequences