• theneverfox@pawb.social
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    22 days ago

    That’s crazy. You think monkeys aren’t curious about the world around them?

    They just don’t look to humans for answers, they look to humans for treats

    • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      22 days ago

      Well, curiosity comes in different stripes. Investigating your environment is one thing. Asking second-order questions is another.

      “May I have food?” vs “Why am I here?” and “What is the nature of consciousness?”

      • “Why are we here?”

        “One of life’s great mysteries isn’t it? Why are we here? I mean, are we the product of some cosmic coincidence? Or is there really a God, watching everything? You know, with a plan for us and stuff? I don’t know man, but it keeps me up at night.”

        “What? I mean why are we here, in this box canyon in the middle of nowhere?”

      • theneverfox@pawb.social
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        22 days ago

        They already understand the second order questions though. Why would they ask the humans?

        They know what’s outside their enclosures, they know they’re there because the humans want them there, they know strange humans like to see and interact with them through the glass. They just don’t care, so long as they have their tribe around with things to do and they get tasty food

        Animals understand existence better than humans do. They understand life and death better than we to. Our higher intelligence makes second order questions complicated because we put ourselves through mental gymnastics

        We should be asking apes about the meaning of life, not the other way around

        • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          22 days ago

          Second-order questions aren’t just the prosaic things any intelligent creature would ask, such as “why am I here?” or “what do you want from me?”

          but also the more esoteric, “what sort of creature are you?” And “what sort of creature am I?”

          Animals (and, indeed, most humans) don’t ask (or don’t really understand) second-order questions very well because that requires abstraction, which is the sort of reasoning that requires enormous amounts of education and curiosity.

          • theneverfox@pawb.social
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            22 days ago

            but also the more esoteric, “what sort of creature are you?” And “what sort of creature am I?”

            I agree, but that is the kind of question they do think about. Koko was “a wonderful gorilla person” in her own words

            There’s a dog that uses one of those word button mats that thinks small dogs are cats, dogs are dogs, and that she’s a human (or that her owner is also a dog, she’s convinced she’s the same as her owner and always gets confused when it’s explained otherwise)

            They don’t ask, because they already know what they think. They aren’t confused about where they stand in the world, it’s learning human categorization that confuses them

            • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              22 days ago

              I don’t want to conflate the pragmatic use of tools or manipulation of the environment with questions about the meaning of life. Even most humans can’t do the latter. We have a lot of depressing research showing that most people can barely engage in abstract reasoning at all, let alone willingly or effectively.

              I think nearly every sentient creature can be depressed and understand how badly life is going. But that’s different.

    • treadful@lemmy.zip
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      22 days ago

      I have no idea if they’re curious about the world around them. But that’s also not the question at hand.

      • theneverfox@pawb.social
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        22 days ago

        It is the question at hand. It’s a question about the mental process of animals

        The question isn’t are they curious - we know they are. The question is why they don’t ask humans questions when you teach them how to speak

        The answer is - it’s because you’re not speaking gorilla, the gorilla is learning a foreign language, which it learned by being motivated by food.

        Animal languages have a different grammar to human languages. When they ask questions, they often do it by making statements to be agreed with or corrected. They might even disagree, and assert the statement again in reply

        You have to meet animals halfway… Well, really like 10% of the way since they’re the ones learning to speak to us in our languages