I remember seeing a young boy ,7 years old or so, sitting by a pond with turtle ducks. I saw that boy 7 years later and he was horribly scarred across almost half his face, homeless, and quite mentally unwell (he believed his mission in life was to capture a 112 year old man that hadn’t been seen in generations). My point is turtle ducks are not lucky, just cute.

I’d add Eric Clapton’s kids to that short list

So we don’t know if Saruman was there in person or some sort of wizardry type projection of himself. Cool, thanks for the link!

I remember Gandalf saying explicitly that it was not him. We know it was Saruman, just can’t remember if he was in person or some sort of projection.

Did the books ever clarify if he was walking around in person or as some sort of projection while safe in Orthanc? I can’t remember. Guess it’s time for a reread!